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 Smash being too linear?

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PostSubject: Smash being too linear?   Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:06 pm

Before I go with my thoughts, I just want you to post your feelings about the subject presented.

I just want your reflections so I can be sure about this decision I'm about to make.
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:34 pm

Define what you mean by "linear" for us.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:20 pm

Morph Boy wrote:
Define what you mean by "linear" for us.
Linear in general. What I'm referring to is the central zoning methods used in smash, some of which are ludicrous to some standards by players who show zero to none in a class of tech skill.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:29 pm

I don't think my explanation was well thought of, so I'm revising it to put a more central focus on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:02 am

Red wrote:
Linear in general. What I'm referring to is the central zoning methods used in smash, some of which are ludicrous to some standards by players who show zero to none in a class of tech skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qqzckPB2RZo#t=11s
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:35 pm

Lol, I hope I can access a legit keyboard to explain this.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:15 pm

Okay, so I was playing a few sets with a guy in Project M, and I theorized something based off this video.


Theorized from this video, any player without a sense of the word "techskill" can beat someone plenty of it due to the player with techskill not having the proper mindset.... however that is not at all the case here.

You see, given a proper build, a character can abuse certain horizontal ground-zoning tactics that are either

a. Good kill move, sweet-spotters included
b. Hard to dodge due to the angling of said move.
c. Something hard to foresee, lightning quick and hard to punish

... Of course, it sounds like I'm making a big shenanigan of this entire subject, of course I could draw a multitude of examples of where good players get thrashed by players on completely different skill levels. Perhaps what I'm trying to bring out is perhaps giving the game engine mechanics which can partially control these pesky factors that most 2d fighting games would provide on its own. Creating some type of central aspect to nerfing some system mechanics or perhaps changing them to perform in different situations.

So for example, the AT Crouch Cancel like it is explained in the wiki, the technique is used to lessen the said the trajectory of the moved used on the user. Well from my experience, the said technique can easily be abused. Take Marth for example

Melee Marth:
+ Good on ground AND air
+ The godlike grab
+ Side Smash sweet spot is somewhat op'd when in use with crouch cancel...

Actually, Marth in general when using this is considered op'd in my book, not because of the amount of techskill a player can use with this, but if used in a fashion where they're barely using any of it is where a problem would stir... unless you use safe moves (of course).

I haven't exactly found a method to balance the formality of these moves with mechanics that can be easily misused, but I'm carefully studying games around me which share some similar issues but were able to iron them out by diversity or hardcore balancing.

Take King of Fighters for example; a majority of characters in the series are equally diverse and only a few have projectiles that surface, hovering over the ground. But the thing that balances King of Fighters out is zoning hops that are used to qucikly evade, punish and retreat in all various types of situations. King of Fighters is diverse from Street Fighter, due to its heavy offense traits and lack of superficial zoning moves that are projectile themed.

Blazblue is rather different, considering that it's not like any other fighter you could experience out there (y'know, besides good ole' Guilty Gear) but the mechanics used in Blazblue make sure to preserve balance in every combo with damage-scaling caps.

Hmm, actually, damage-scaling caps doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Would most of you be in favor of something of this nature?
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:00 pm

So, what your saying is that we should try to make a Smash game that isn't so wholly dependent on a player's mindset, but rather more on their skill?

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:59 pm

Morph Boy wrote:
So, what your saying is that we should try to make a Smash game that isn't so wholly dependent on a player's mindset, but rather more on their skill?
Precisely where I was going with that post.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:37 pm

Red wrote:
Morph Boy wrote:
So, what your saying is that we should try to make a Smash game that isn't so wholly dependent on a player's mindset, but rather more on their skill?
Precisely where I was going with that post.

Ah, okay. I just needed to simplify it.
Well, that is the ideal fighting experience, is it not? Winning because of your skill and not because of your mindset? To improve upon the foundations of Smash, I think redesigning the Smash engine into a hybrid of Smash mechanics with a traditional fighting game foundation is our best option.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:36 pm

Morph Boy wrote:
Red wrote:
Morph Boy wrote:
So, what your saying is that we should try to make a Smash game that isn't so wholly dependent on a player's mindset, but rather more on their skill?
Precisely where I was going with that post.

Ah, okay. I just needed to simplify it.
Well, that is the ideal fighting experience, is it not? Winning because of your skill and not because of your mindset? To improve upon the foundations of Smash, I think redesigning the Smash engine into a hybrid of Smash mechanics with a traditional fighting game foundation is our best option.
I needed to safely come to that conclusion before I updated the blog any further, though I'm confused as to where we can start with this.

I can brainstorm some stuff in the meantime.
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:48 pm

You shouldn't do all the brainstorming yourself. My schedule finally cleared up tomorrow, and I already have some (unrefined) ideas for how the game will work. If I can, I'll post tomorrow with my own blog.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Morph Boy wrote:
You shouldn't do all the brainstorming yourself. My schedule finally cleared up tomorrow, and I already have some (unrefined) ideas for how the game will work. If I can, I'll post tomorrow with my own blog.
By all means, go right ahead. I encourage you guys to give me some type of insight anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:39 pm

Cool. Expect a new topic from me soon (hopefully).

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:12 am

As you might be able to tell, I am a total n00b when it comes to competitive fighting gaming. I am a casual fighting gamer. From a n00bs perspective, it seems like you're saying that you want to base the game on skill, not determination. How do you propose this works?
I don't have much skill when it comes to competitive SSBBing, nor do I have much determination, but I still win many of my matches. I don't know many of the special techniques, or acquired skills, but STILL I win somehow. When playing against someone who is DETERMINED to beat me, I either sneak the handicap higher or I let them pick my character. More often than not, they'll pick Olimar, Jigglypuff or Peach (three of my best) but, regardless, I win. What happens if my situation arises while playing the game?
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Shih-Na wrote:
As you might be able to tell, I am a total n00b when it comes to competitive fighting gaming. I am a casual fighting gamer. From a n00bs perspective, it seems like you're saying that you want to base the game on skill, not determination. How do you propose this works?
I don't have much skill when it comes to competitive SSBBing, nor do I have much determination, but I still win many of my matches. I don't know many of the special techniques, or acquired skills, but STILL I win somehow. When playing against someone who is DETERMINED to beat me, I either sneak the handicap higher or I let them pick my character. More often than not, they'll pick Olimar, Jigglypuff or Peach (three of my best) but, regardless, I win. What happens if my situation arises while playing the game?
Can you elaborate what you mean by "arising"?
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:09 am

You say that you are trying to focus on skill, not determination, so what are you going to have happen if someone with my...condition shows up? Will basing the game off of skill make someone with my abilities suck at the game?
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:25 am

Basically, yes. With the engine that we're going to be making, we're hoping that Smash is no longer won by how determined someone is, but rather by abilities. Don't worry, though. It should be easy enough to learn how to get good at the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:24 pm

Basically what Morph said. The game should emphasize skill with a combination of mindsets (considering that most players have their bad days) but more heavily on the techniques used rather than solely the mindsets of the respective players.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:07 pm

So it's not gonna be pick up and play? It's gonna be pick up, train for 7 weeks in one long montage and try to play?
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:36 pm

Shih-Na wrote:
So it's not gonna be pick up and play? It's gonna be pick up, train for 7 weeks in one long montage and try to play?
Nope. I'm designing a tutorial mode concept (something fighting games lack nowadays) that'll teach you the basics in no more than 10 minutes (hopefully less). From there, it's up to you to figure out what works best for each character.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:49 pm

No intention to burst your bubble, but players will still use their mindset to play, no matter the ability the player has. All he has to do is go to the lab with the character. No matter how many plugs you put in, someone will always figure out on how to zone you out, rush you in, or open you up.

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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:04 pm

LegendaryNoob wrote:
No intention to burst your bubble, but players will still use their mindset to play, no matter the ability the player has. All he has to do is go to the lab with the character. No matter how many plugs you put in, someone will always figure out on how to zone you out, rush you in, or open you up.
.. and which was what my last post was based on. Techskill is provided in every single Smash title, but theres's nothing jurisdicting the amount that's used at all. I was trying to draw back to my last post to try and combine the two aspects rather than undermind the entirety of the game by using none of it at all.

EDIT: This is the purpose of the tutorial Morph mentioned that he would construct.
The point being made is that there are hiddent techs in the games that people would have to log and look for. There should be some way to make players more enthusiastic to learn these things rather than most of it being there and the player has no fucking clue what the other was doing. We can log the unintended as we go.
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PostSubject: Re: Smash being too linear?   Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:10 pm

Okay, at least 1/3 of the roster is official. I'm not really putting any zomg speed on this because I've given it much thought over this and last week.

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